Interview: Mick Collins

During his hour-long conversation with the Modern Pea Pod, Mick Collins brought up the weather. And who could blame him? We're boring people. But when he mentioned Michigan's infamously volatile atmosphere, something about his choice of words was telling. "I like the constant change," Collins said. And at least mentally, my reply was, "No shit." After all, if anyone knows about "constant change," it's Collins: the man whose prodigious gifts when it comes to side project juggling are as well-known as his bands' lightning-fast lineup changes; who practically midwifed the entity known as Detroit garage with his legendary late '80s band the Gories before leaving the fledgling scene in the dust, forging forward with one loud'n'dirty art-punk experiment after another while producing albums by everyone from the Demolition Doll Rods to the Black Godfather himself, Andre Williams.

His most famous musical achievement yet, and probably his most fully-formed, ended up being the Dirtbombs: a band whose rise to cult fame, ironically enough, came at the same time as the new generation of Motor City bands for whom the Gories had been a crucial inspiration. Cynics, then, might say that Mick Collins owes his post-2001 status to Jack White...but if you ask me, the reverse is true. In any case, it was my distinct pleasure to sit down for an interview with Mick Collins, presented here in its entirety - minus the weather chat, anyway.

Modern Pea Pod: So my first question is just out of personal interest: when is the next Dirtbombs record going to come out?

Mick Collins: Not this year. This year it's gonna be all singles - we've got to get an LP's worth of singles out before August. (laughs) Because they've gotta be recorded and out before we do any actual shows. These days it's so easy to get music that recordings are put out to support the tour, rather than the other way around, the way it used to be. With peer-to-peer and everything, music is so easy to hear, so a record is just another piece of merch. But yeah, this year it's all singles, maybe an EP...I'm not planning on doing another LP until next year.

MPP: The Dirtbombs have always put out a lot of singles. Now I know you guys are all collectors; does that have anything to do with all the 7" releases, is it like an incentive for people who collect vinyl?

MC: I think it actually has a lot more to do with my having a short attention span. I probably buy more LPs than I do singles, but when it comes to listening to new bands, I have an attention span of about 30 minutes. It doesn't matter how good it is; after 30 minutes, I'm like, "I'm done." (laughs) And our singles come out in different countries all over the world; the latest batch has records from Canada, Spain, Brazil and Serbia. And the singles on our first comp [2005's If You Don't Already Have a Look], one of them came out in an edition of 300. So there was a point when no one person could own every Dirtbombs single...and if you did, I'd probably be a little scared. (laughs)

Anyway, we're all big record collectors, sure, but the rest of aren't like the super freak Ben [Blackwell] is. [laughs] He's not buying a 45 for $10 because of the music; his 45s are getting to the point where it's like, that's just collector scum stuff, why even bother?

MPP: So what about these new records? Are we talking covers or originals?

MC: Like every time, it's gonna be a little bit of both. I don't know what cover songs we're doing just yet...but the five songs I've been working on are all originals. I know we're gonna do "Sherlock Holmes" by Sparks for an In the Red single. We jokingly talked about covering that song for years, and now that In the Red is putting out the new album by Sparks, I thought that would be the perfect opportunity. So we're doing "Sherlock Holmes" and "Nothing to Do," but nobody knows how to play "Nothing to Do" yet! It's a pretty tough song.

(The Dirtbombs, 2001 model: ready for the limelight.)

MPP: Now, one thing that's always in the back of my mind about the Dirtbombs is it was never really meant to be your main thing. You've always juggled a ton of side projects, and this one was maybe even less major than some others. So what changed, how did this band become the focus?

MC: Well, we got famous in England and we had to keep touring. I had to put my other projects on the back burner for a while; suddenly we had to take time off from everything else. That's one reason why we're not touring much this year, because we've all got other stuff going on. We just want to cut some singles and concentrate on the rest of our lives.

MPP: Would you say the Dirtbombs became "full-time" around the time of Ultraglide in Black?

MC: Yeah. They picked up on Ultraglide along with every other record by a Detroit band in 2001, so we all trooped out there and went. And we've been touring pretty much constantly ever since. We actually had a tour that started on October 17, 2003 and ended October 24, 2004...more than a year! We went to Europe twice during that time. We don't tour like that anymore. Or at least, I don't tour like that anymore.

MPP: And the other thing about the Dirtbombs, at least according to your liner notes on the single records, is that you've got a definite end for the band in mind. Is this something you're serious about?

MC: Oh, absolutely. It always was finite; it's just that nobody ever paid attention when I said it. I've always said, the Dirtbombs have a beginning, middle and end. It doesn't matter how famous or not famous we are before we reach this thing - at some point, I'm gonna be there, and I'm gonna be done with this idea, this concept, this way of making music.

MPP: What's the concept?

MC: [pauses] Well, I don't really have an answer ready, because I don't think anybody's ever asked me that before. Basically, it's just to see how many different kinds of music I could make with that lineup: two drummers, a bass, a fuzz pedal and a guitar. I made a list of the stuff to do with it, and that's what I've been going by since 1992. We got sidetracked once, actually; I moved things around. Ultraglide was supposed to be the fourth album, not the second one, but there was a song I wanted to cover so bad that I had to finish it before anybody else did. On an artistic level, personally, I think it was a bad move. But I did it, and it's done.

MPP: So the Dirtbombs is like Star Wars?

MC: [laughs] I'm getting that more than I used to, now that people realize I was being really serious about it. Now people are astonished. Basically I think they thought I was making it up. I mean most bands are not done like that, most are just guys who get together and jam into existence. I actually have a spec sheet that I made in June of 1992, and I think that's what offends people more than anything else. [laughs] It's like going for ISO certification or something - that's pretty much the only thing I haven't done.

But no, nothing about the Dirtbombs was natural or organic, the whole thing was contrived from the beginning. And especially in Europe, people want to talk about how natural it is, how much soul...the Dirtbombs are the fakest band in existence! The shows are good, the music is good, but it's a sculpture, just like a living one; it's artwork like anything else, and it's highly conceptual. I mean, Ben is the only actual rock'n'roller in the band - the rest of us are all like jazzbos and classical people! [laughs]

("The fakest band in existence": 2006's Dirtbombs mock nature.)

MPP: How far are you into this list, then? Is there more territory to cover? Should we start to worry?

MC: Oh, there's more territory - quite a bit, actually. I mean how many different types of hyphenated rock are there? When I first started thinking about it, I was like, "this is probably way too much work, I'm gonna narrow this down just to things I like." But that's probably the overall statement of the band, this whole business of hyphenated rock. It's like, how did we reach this point? People who don't listen to electronic dance music don't realize that there are like 30 different kinds: I mean, progressive house, deep house... And it's the same thing with rock - if you don't listen to it, you have no idea. I'm just taking the mickey, just poking fun at this whole idea of hyphenated rock.

MPP: As a critic, I can say that the Dirtbombs are one of the hardest bands to describe without essentializing them or reducing them to a caricature in any way.

MC: [laughs] Well, I've gotta make it interesting for you, too! You're not the first person who's complained to me about that. When I started, that was the thing, I wanted a band that was as hard to describe as anything else. I mean, how do you describe a band that has two drummers, two basses and a guitar? And they sort of play rock, but sort of...don't? It's like, [mock indignation] "This isn't a rock thing at all! It's a conceptualn art thing like Henry Cow! I hate these people! The new Dirtbombs record sucks!" [laughs]

MPP: But the only problem is that you guys came to the forefront right at the time of a readily identifiable genre in Detroit, which was garage rock.

MC: Yeah, that's the thing that fuckin' sticks in my craw. We came along right at that time, and Ultraglide happened to be the record we put out. So one thing led to another, and suddenly we were a garage band. I'm sure there are a ton of my railings about that online already...it's been a big pain in the ass, frankly. People would come see us, and we'd be onstage sounding like Slade or something, and they'd go away mad. Rather than feeling like the hype and the press had lied to them, they felt like we'd lied to them. That pissed me off, man. And we weren't the only ones, we were just the only ones who decided we weren't going to take it. Everybody else was just happy to be getting work!

(Can garage rock do this? Live Dirtbombs, 2002 - photo by What a Way to Die)

MPP: How have the years since the big garage explosion changed things, then? Do you feel like it's better for the Dirtbombs or even for Detroit to have the spotlight off for a while?

MC: Basically, now that the spotlight is off, we're still doing what we've been doing for the last 25 years. People looking or not looking doesn't change the way we do bands here - I mean, we've been here before. Suddenly having the spotlight turned on what we do naturally in Detroit is not new; you can pretty much be sure it's going to be happening every five, ten years. So it doesn't matter. We'll still be going to the same clubs with the same people. Or more importantly, going to the same clubs to see the same people. And there's always gonna be people who want to do soul music in Detroit.

MPP: That's actually something that surprises me...you almost expect there to be more of a soul revival going on in Detroit.

MC: Well, if you want to do soul music, then everybody right away forces you to sing modern R&B. You can't play classic soul the way you can play classic rock. That just hasn't happened in black music yet. I, for one, would love it. That would be something I'd be happy to do - I mean, I wouldn't make it my own thing, but...

MPP: Why do you think that is, that black music isn't looked back at the same way as white music?

MC: I just think we can't be convinced that our past is worth anything. It's pretty much what happened to rock'n'roll...most people don't know rock was a black art form, originally. But there was a moment when punk rock could have swept the inner cities, and it didn't happen because of hip-hop. It just came down to the fact that a turntable costs $60 and a guitar costs $300, and that was that. But there was a time when I was a kid, at least in Detroit, when everyone in the neighborhood had a punk rock band with three or four black kids. Then in '82 or '83, hip-hop swept Detroit and that was the end. So I always say, I'm not the only black guy in a punk rock band in Detroit, I'm just the only one who's still there after 20-odd years. [laughs]

(Collins and Jerome Gray: the Voltaire Brothers, 2003 - photo courtesy Fanatic)

MPP: You've already done a few sort of tributes to classic black music on your own, though; first with Ultraglide in Black and then with the Voltaire Brothers album [I Sing the Booty Electric] in 2003, which is one of my favorite projects of yours. Are there any plans to do a second Voltaire Brothers record?

MC: Yes, there are. We started pre-production already, and I actually think we might get around to recording it in January. It's unlikely that we'll be able to do anything but write the songs until then, though, because Jerome [Gray], the other Voltaire Brother, works a 9-5, and he can't really get away to tour the way I can. We've had offers to do live shows across the US and Europe; we always say we'd love to, but we can't.

Also, the musical focus is on old-style '70s heavy funk bands, which always had really elaborate stage shows like P-Funk or something. So what would probably happen before an actual tour is a video, like a 30-minute movie starring the Voltaire Brothers. Unless, of course, Jerome decides he's sick of his job, in which case we're hitting the road. [laughs]

MPP: Is there anything else going on?

MC: I have a couple different things - there's a techno 12" coming out, that should be out this summer. It's just sort of been languishing, because the guy who runs the label has been out on tour. I'm probably doing another one of those this year, too. Other than that, I'm just doing some solo recordings, and also I've got another band called Man Ray Man Ray. Hopefully we'll be getting a recording and some shows done, too.

MPP: I always ask people who dabble in a lot of different projects what the difference is from one to the other, and usually they just say it's because there are different people involved or something like that. But you strike me as a person who definitely has some reasons to distinguish between one band and another.

MC: Oh, yeah. The difference really is that they're all different types of music. The Dirtbombs play rock, but others are a lot less rock. Man Ray Man Ray is still rock, but less rock than the Dirtbombs. And the Voltaire Brothers are a funk band, obviously. Years and years ago, I thought that if I was gonna play different music, rather than try to shoehorn different styles into the same project, why not just do another band?

(The Dirtbombs: survivors)

MPP: Back to the Dirtbombs, it seems like you guys have gotten fairly famous without really even trying. Why do you think that is?

MC: It's just because we've been at it since 1992. By pure dint of surviving, we've developed a following. It's not much to do with anything else except that we've been around forever; the records don't sell anywhere near the numbers you would need to sell out the places we sell out. We've just been doing it for so long.

Recently I read about some band who didn't even have a record - Jimmy Eat World or something, or Hawthorne Heights - who just hit the road and stayed there. And that's what we did. People went to see us, went home and told all their friends. So for every one person who came the first time, there's three the second time. There's a lot less pressure to succeed when all you're doing is playing shows, and from what I've heard, our live show is apparently quite good. I mean, it's the kind that people go home and tell all their friends about. We played Denver on our last tour; we'd played there two or three times before, and gotten kind of average crowds. But last time the place was packed. It was because the seven or eight people who came out the time before managed to tell all their friends. And in France, we've played there for the last five years and never had good attendance; suddenly, last time, you would have thought we were the Rolling Stones. I was like, what happened in the intervening time?

MPP: The Dirtbombs are sort of unique among the recent wave of Detroit bands in that there's never really been a backlash against them...do you think this kind of natural growth has to do with that?

MC: Right. Word of mouth is the best possible way a band can get their following. When you're not being talked about by the press every week, people don't get burned out about you. Actually, probably the only real thing about the Dirtbombs is the fact that our fans love us. [laughs] And we're pretty thrilled to have them, too.

MPP: Next, it seems like it wouldn't really be a Dirtbombs interview without mentioning the infamous lineup changes. But the band's been pretty stable for the last few years.

MC: Yeah, Troy [Gregory]'s still playing bass and Ko [Shih] is still on fuzz. This lineup's going on its third year, actually, which is a record for the Dirtbombs.

(Two of these Dirtbombs will be gone in about five minutes...can you guess which ones?)

MPP: At the same time, when Jim Diamond left, he'd been in the band for longer than pretty much everybody but you. Did that take some adjusting?

MPP: Actually, because Diamond talked so much on stage, I think it actually tightened up our live set. He didn't really like to play; he liked to play a song and stand there and talk, play a song and have a cigarette, play a song and have a beer... Now we just play songs. [laughs]

But the lineup changes, most of it has stayed true to my ideas I've had since the start. The actual changes have been minor. There have been more and less talented people in the band, but overall the changes have been small, almost cosmetic, really.

MPP: And just to end on what's probably another familiar note: how about that bubblegum pop album? Is it still coming?

MC: Yeah. It's next, actually.

MPP: Covers? Originals?

MC: Originals, mostly. I'm sure if I find something that would make a really good bubblegum song, I'd do it.

MPP: This is just always the project I've wanted to come out, ever since I'd heard of it. Just hearing a bubblegum song with the Dirtbombs fuzz.

MC: Yeah, I mean, there are bubblegum songs with fuzz bass. I'm trying to think of one off the top of my head...maybe "You Are the One" by the Sugar Bears. But there were four Archies LPs, so I can't imagine they made it through four without cutting a fuzz track. I'm actually surprised when I hear it, though, how good the Archies actually were. Some of those songs have been covered by recent rock bands! There's one that I really wanted to do with the Dirtbombs, actually, called "Feelin' So Good." But somebody else got to it first.

Mick Collins will be playing with the Dirtbombs in Ann Arbor tomorrow night, at the Blind Pig. Support by the Lee Marvin Computer Arm and the Terrible Twos; cover is $10, doors are at 9 pm, show is for 18 and up. For ticket info, check the Blind Pig website.

Official Site (The Dirtbombs)
Buy If You Don't Already Have a Look on Amazon
See Also: another Mick I'd like to see this Mick collaborate with.